Deeper Truth Blog: *BEST OF DTB #243* A response to Yesica1993 on the subject of arrogance

Friday, December 28, 2012

BEST OF DTB #243 A response to Yesica1993 on the subject of arrogance

This was a message I received on the Deepertruthblog Youtube channel from one of the supporters of the CARM organization. The comment was in response to my irrefutable statement that protestants have no authority to interpret scripture.

First, a prophet is someone who speaks for God. Contrary to popular misconception, prophecy does not always concern predicting the future. Prophecy of Scripture refers to the authority entrusted to record, translate and properly interpret scripture and the Bible is clear that this is not an issue entrusted to private individuals.

2 Peter 1:20
First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,

Secondly, it is the very height of arrogance to call the Bible 'a book'. The Bible is a collection of books but these are not ordinary books, by any means. Scripture is Inspired by God (God breathed) and it is not at all easy to interpret.

2 Peter 3:16
speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

The reason for this is that, since Scripture is from the mind of God, mere man cannot hope to attain to understanding it, accept God place that understanding within him. Through human effort, this is impossible. For this cause of direct Revelation, God did not give us a Bible He expects us to follow, He gave us a Church that He expects us to follow. He built this church on the Rock of Peter (emphasis mine).

^{Matthew 16:13}Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” ¹⁴And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, but others Elijah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” ¹⁵He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” ¹⁶Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” ¹⁷And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. ¹⁸And I tell you, you are Peter (Kephas), and on this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. ¹⁹I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” ²⁰Then he sternly ordered the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

6 Times Jesus says you to Simon Peter so that the emphasis could not be missed. Giving the keys hearkens back to Isaiah 22:22 where the keys are given to the Prime Minister (second in command). The actual Greek rendering of v 18 is Petros Kai Tautee Te Petra which, literally translated is "You are Rock and upon this exact same Rock will I build my Church".

Kai means 'and' so there is no contrast. Tautee Te means 'this exact same' and refers back to the immediatly preceding noun (Petros). Finally, Petros and Petra mean exactly the same name, only that Petros, addressing Peter directly, is the Masculine form, while Petra, addressed indirectly is neutral or feminine. There is no question that Peter is the authority vested here.

He alone receives direct revelation from the Father.
He alone is the church built on.
He alone receives the keys to the kingdom.
He primarily is given the power to bind and loose.

It cannot be argued that Jesus established the Church as the final authority to speak for Him. (Matthew 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, 1 Timothy 3:15).

The Bible? That didn't appear until more than 300 years later and the very Church Jesus founded gave it to us. The question of which church is also not in question. It is the church Luke calls Ecclesia Kath Olos in Acts 9:31. Commonly translated 'The Church throughout' or 'The Universal Church', it is literally translated 'The Catholic Church'. We see the exact same term in Ignatius letter of 110 AD.

90 by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.(2) even as where Christ is, there does all the heavenly host stand by, waiting upon Him as the Chief Captain of the Lord's might, and the Governor of every intelligent nature. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize, or to offer, or to present sacrifice, or to celebrate a love-feast.(1) But that which seems good to him, is also well-pleasing to God, that everything ye do may be secure and valid.

~Saint Ignatius of Antioch, letter to the Smyrnaeans, chapter VIII (AD 110)

The reformers, nearly 16 centuries later, decided they did not need to follow God's appointed authority any longer. This is a very dangerous proposition indeed.

Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. ²Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

Having said all this, let me directly address the meat of the person's objection. There is a fundamental flaw in your reasoning. You make the mistake of thinking that just because you can read the words on the page, this automatically translates to understanding the message being conveyed. This is utter nonsense. If you have no foundation is the Old Testament, and you do not understand typology and allegory and metaphor and linguistic subtleties, you have no hope of understanding Scripture. Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead the Church to all truth (John 14:25-26). Without obedience to the Church (the branches from the vine), you cannot hope to find the truth.

That is why protestantism is lost. 33,000 denominations- blind guides leading the blind.

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The Pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15)

The purpose of Deeper Truth is to provide a defense for the one fully true church of Christ. It is not designed to attack or hurt others.

We will speak boldly. We will not whitewash the truth.

Yes, we do believe that there is only 1 truth and the only place on earth where it can be found whole, complete, and uncorrupted is the Roman Catholic Church. Yes, we do feel that we can prove that case.

We can prove it historically, supernaturally, logically, practically and Biblically. And we will, make no mistake about that.

We believe that science and observation and reason are sufficient proofs of the existence of God. We also believe that reason and logic alone are sufficient causes for any human being to suspect that that God would have revealed Himself to us in some fashion. Further, we believe that He has and the historical, practical and supernatural proofs are beyond overwhelming that God has revealed, and continues to reveal, His will to us exclusively through the Roman Catholic Church, which He founded when He lived among us in the historical person of Jesus Christ.

We believe that anyone who has totally given Himself to the whole and objective search for truth cannot help but be drawn towards the light of what the Apostle Paul called the Pillar and Foundation of all truth, that is the Catholic Church.
A mere 77 years after the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, when some of the young witnesses would still have been alive, St. Ignatius of Antioch said; “Where Christ is, there is His Catholic Church”.

Truer words were never spoken.

For those of you chomping at the bit to discuss (or dare you dream, refute) Catholic teaching, don’t worry, you will get your chance.

Here is what constitutes debate to me. You do not ignore my questions or evidences and simply move on to more questions and or accusations. You do not make accusations, purported as factual, without sufficient original evidence.

That means that you do not make an accusation about what Catholics believe, do or have done or will do without providing an original, verifiable source that can be instantly accessed by any listener of the program.

If you characterize debate as an endless stream of unsupported accusations, you have come to the wrong place.

Here are some examples of what would constitute proof;

If you charge, as fact, that Catholics believe a particular thing, I will expect you to provide a link to an official Catholic source, citing it as a defined doctrine. Sources could include the Catechism of the Catholic Church or a document from a council. Links to anti- Catholic or non-Catholic sources that quote teachings out of context are insufficient.

I will gladly debate you on anything the Catholic Church actually has defined and teaches but I won’t waste my time arguing about what Dave Hunt or Jack Chick falsely claims that we teach.

If you charge, as purported fact, that a belief the church actually does have violates scripture or Christian teaching in some way, be prepared to not only support your arguments but to contest mine. I will debate via Scripture, history, tradition, practicality and logic. If you insist that the debate can only be on Scripture alone because you allege that Scripture is the only authority, I will insist that you provide scripture explicitly establishing that only the written word of God, as contained in a specific canon of books, can be accepted to the exclusion of all else.

Good luck.

If you charge, for example, that Catholic sexual abuse proves that the Catholic church cannot be the true church of God, I will expect you to provide empirical evidence that the rate of sexual abuse among Catholic priests is higher than ministers of other faiths or of the public at large.

The purpose of this show is to show you the truth. I will do so by basis of empirical evidence. If you truly want to see the truth, I can provide it. If you are simply unwilling to see the truth, I cannot help you.

That being said, we know that there are good people in all faiths and that many people of good will are genuinely confused about what Catholics believe and why they believe it.

I will start by giving you 30 basic precepts of what Catholics believe, as a foundation for us to build on. I will then explain exactly how this show will work.

1. We believe that by nature, science and reason alone, God has put sufficient light in every man to realize that the formation and expansion of life cannot possibly be by chance or random action. We believe that science, observation and simple human reason makes it impossible for anyone to truly doubt the existence of an intelligent designer. We believe that anyone who denies such a basic and undeniable fact, does so by force of pride or rebellion, not by force of intellect.

2. We believe that, hard-wired, by the creator, into every human being is a basic knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil. Man can choose to suppress this knowledge but he that will cause an intrinsic rebellion within him. Among this basic knowledge is the truth that murder, stealing, lying, violence, rape and homosexuality are disordered and objectively evil. Again, we believe anyone denying this knowledge isn’t doing so out of an intellectually arrived at position but out of rebellion or pain or pride. This knowledge is as basic as the knowledge that we need to breath, eat, drink, sleep, avoid pain and fight or flee danger. It is instinctive.

3. We believe that each person has in him an irresistible longing for God that battles against an unruly and unreasonable concupiscence. Concupiscence is man’s innate selfish desire. We Catholics define this concupiscence as original sin. Fully giving oneself over to the longing for God will lead to salvation. The most perfect completion of this being in the Catholic Church. A lifetime spent resisting this urge for God, in exchange for the longings of the flesh will lead to a lifetime of misery and-eventually- to an eternity of unimaginable suffering.

4. We believe this God has revealed Himself to us in very specific ways and through very specific people. These people include Prophets, Saints, Apostles and Old Testament Kings. The ways include Miracles and Signs, Sacred Scripture, public and private revelation, sacred tradition and the teachers He has appointed throughout the ages from Abraham to the current Magisterium of today’s Roman Catholic Church.

5. Because of #4, We believe anyone who claims to speak for God has an obligation to demonstrate credentials. We can do so in ways that no other church or religious entity on earth could even dare to claim.

6. We believe this God has been revealed as a singular God who exists in 3 persons, the second of which also took on humanity. We believe this one triune God and only this one triune God is worthy of worship. Anyone who tells you that Catholics worship anyone but the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit is lying to you. It’s just that simple.

7. We believe that this God gave us a moral law that will never pass away and that every single person will face the judgment of God based on the moral law.

8. We believe that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Mosaic law.

9. We believe that Jesus Christ, by His life, suffering, death and Resurrection redeemed the world.

10. We believe the graces secured at Calvary are sufficient for the removal of all sin.

11. We believe that salvation is by Christ alone.

12. We believe that salvation is by grace alone.

13. We believe that man must participate in his own salvation and that no man or woman has ever been saved, or ever will be saved by faith alone. That the Bible clearly refutes the doctrine of Salvation by Faith alone is clear almost to the point of excess. Anybody who tells you that man is saved by faith alone is simply repeating a man-made lie, whether or not they may actually believe it.

14. We believe that Jesus Christ created a church that is the Pillar and Foundation of all truth, just as the Bible states. That we have an infallible Bible (and we do) is only because an infallible church gave it to us. That church-and only that Church- is fully and completely entrusted by God with the Scriptures and the Truths of Religion. Everyone else is guessing, to greater or less success, all falling short of the fullness of the truth of Catholicism. In fact…..

15. We believe that, in truth, there is only one true church. Catholic means Universal and we affirm that every single baptized Christian is a member-knowing or unknowing, willing or unwilling- of the Catholic Church and accountable, to the extent of the light of faith within them, to her teachings.

16. We affirm the infallibility and inspiration of Scripture and that all Scripture is useful for reproof, teaching and training in holiness. Nevertheless, we reject the notion of Sola Scriptura and hold the notion of practical sufficiency and the SELF interpretation of Scripture to be self-refuting, untenable nonsense.

17. We hold the teaching authority of the Church, the Sacred tradition of the fathers, and Holy Scripture to all be necessary parts of the Church.

18. We do not believe that any of the members of the Catholic Church are Impeccable, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Divine, Eternal or, in any way, shape, manner or form equal with God. This includes past, present and future members of the Catholic Church. We believe that all members of the Church had to be saved from the stain of original sin by God’s Sanctifying Grace.

19. We believe that Mary was saved by Sanctifying grace from her Mother’s womb, as was John the Baptist. We believe we can prove this scripturally.

20. We do not believe that Mary is God. Anyone who tells you that Catholics worship Mary is a liar. We do believe that She is the MOTHER of God and to deny this is to deny the Incarnation. We also believe that She fulfills the Biblical roles of the Queen Mother, The Ark of the Covenant, the Mother of Christians, the Woman clothed with the Sun and a co-mediatrix, co-redemtrix and advocate that in no manner contradicts 1 Timothy 2:5.

21. We believe that Jesus gave the Catholic clergy the power to anoint, to bind and loose, to preach and interpret Scripture and to forgive sins.

22. We believe that not one soul is saved by any other name than Jesus, even those saved who never heard His name.

23. We believe that not one soul that is saved is not saved by the merits Jesus gives through His Catholic Church, even those who don’t come to fully understand and accept it.

24. We believe that Jesus meant what He said in the 6th chapter of John’s Gospel and that each consecrated host contains the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.

25. We believe that only the full canon of Scripture as defined by the Catholic Church, 73 books, constitutes a complete Bible and only one carrying an Imprimatur is free from doctrinal error.

26. We reject the doctrine of the Rapture and believe that Christians will have to endure the great tribulation.

27. We reject a strictly futurist view of books like John’s Revelation.
The prophecies concerning the great harlot in Revelation 17-18, for instance, refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

28. We reject the assertion that the Israel of today’s world is the Israel of Scripture and find the assertion absurd and untenable. The Church is the new Israel. The Jewish Israel of Scripture is gone, dead, kaput…no more. There is no more temple and will never be. There are no more prophets nor will ever be, no more sacrifice, no more kings, no more Jerusalem. The city is Babylon and a Spiritual Sodom. Revelation 11:8.

29. We reject the doctrine that only Catholics can be saved. God will save who He will. That someone cannot reach the fullness of truth, through their honest efforts, will not be held against him. Those who knowingly reject the truth will perish in their sin and be damned. God will judge all by their works- PERIOD.

30. We do not believe that lying in defense of one’s beliefs, as anti-catholics do, is a virtue but a violation of the commandments of God.

We trust that these subjects and more will make for lively, spirited and- we hope- civil debate.

Remember the word I spoke to you, 'No slave is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
~ John 15:20

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution(17) of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(18) Eucharist, which is[administered] either
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out[through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(18) Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be;

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by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.(2) even as where Christ is, there does all the heavenly host stand by, waiting upon Him as the Chief Captain of the Lord's might, and the Governor of every intelligent nature. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize, or to offer, or to present sacrifice, or to celebrate a love-feast.(1) But that which seems good to him, is also well-pleasing to God, that everything ye do may be secure and valid.

~Saint Ignatius of Antioch, letter to the Smyrnaeans, chapter VIII (AD 110)

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Friday, December 28, 2012

*BEST OF DTB #243* A response to Yesica1993 on the subject of arrogance

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BEST OF DTB #243 A response to Yesica1993 on the subject of arrogance